PDF Accessibility Specialist Dax Castro Shares Insider Info on Document Remediation

Listen to Podcast Episode 11 (MP3 File Download)

There are two speakers in this podcast: Kris Rivenburgh and Dax Castro.

Full Transcript Below:

Kris

This is the Accessible.org podcast. My name is Kris Rivenburgh. Today we’re talking to Dax Castro. Dax is a certified digital accessibility trainer, an accessibility advocate, and he’s on the podcast today to talk about his specialty, document accessibility. Dax, can you tell us more about yourself?

Dax

Well, thanks a lot, Kris. I’m happy to be here. I have about 200 hours of accessibility training when it comes to document accessibility and recently ran the accessibility compliance program for the California High Speed Rail program with the Section 508 Refresh mandate. It’s been an interesting journey and, uh, really found my passion to become an accessibility advocate and just love everything that’s related to document accessibility.

Kris

Before we continue on, I want to clue every listener in on something: you are- you are listening to someone with a very rare skill set. Dax is a master in PDF and document accessibility and people with Dax’s level of mastery and expertise – you just don’t find them. Let’s start off with a critical problem that you’ve been bringing awareness to. It’s the inaccessibility of COVID-19 documents from government and health organizations. What is the main problem and what errors are being made and why are they so problematic?

Dax

Well, you know, accessibility has been fairly new as a requirement. It’s been around since 2009 but a lot of government agencies have not been forced to comply. And as of about 2017 they said, look, you’ve got to comply. And especially for California, in 2019 they had a deadline, a mandate to make sure that their documents were all accessible. So this is very new for a lot of federal and state organizations, even though it’s been around for a very long time. And what I’m seeing in a lot of these COVID public announcements or critical health updates have been kind of twofold. Half of the documents are just print to PDF, so they have no tags whatsoever. They’re kind of business as usual, and then the other half of the documents are are generally just paragraph tags. They’re just however it was exported. They know enough to check the box to export with tags, but the they’re not doing any kind of testing. They’re not reviewing it. They’re not really understanding what it is to be accessible. They just assumed, because the document has tags, therefore it is accessible and compliant. And so so- those are the kind of twofold things that I’m seeing. But, you know, there are agencies out there that are doing a fantastic job. The World Health Organization and the CDC both are doing fantastic jobs in making sure that their documents are are accessible. So it’s good to see some good stuff out there, too.

Kris

And we’re not going to get overly technical in this podcast because PDF accessibility it takes- it takes a while to even, you know, just just get down the basics. But can you tell people why it’s so problematic to 1) not even have tags, but then 2) if you don’t properly assigned your tags, why that’s so why that’s such a huge oversight.

Dax

Sure imagine you’re in a food court, and there are five different restaurants in that food court, and you want tacos from the one restaurant. But it’s the third restaurant. Imagine having to listen to every single menu item on the Chinese restaurant, on the Italian restaurant, on before you get to the Mexican restaurant and then having to hear every item until you get to the person is telling you that there are tacos and you say, wait, nope, I want tacos. And then that whole process is basically what a document is like when you don’t have tags – when they have to basically digest the document line by line, or use auto tagging, the structure that’s in that document where the headings are, where the paragraph brakes are, where the images are. All that information is lost when you use automatic ways or have to manually tag a document without understanding the structure. So that information’s being denied to people who use screen readers. And that’s why tagging so important because we as sighted people get to see things like headings and images and we can skim through articles and understand the overall makeup and structure of a document. But without tags, someone who’s using assistive technology, which is not just blind people – I mean we’re talking about people with low vision or people with cognitive disability. Those people are denied that structure and and that’s why it’s important.

Kris

I love that analogy. There’s a lot of PDFs going around that are fraught with errors, most of which are fairly easy to fix. But document accessibility exists on a range, especially as documents become more complex and include things like tables, infographics and forms. Can you talk about why PDF accessibility exists on a range?

Dax

Part of the things that make document accessibility exist in a range is that there’s so many different types of documents out there. I can take a document that is basically structured, and it’s accessible on a basic level. Or I can go through and make it what I call the Cadillac experience, where I take the tags and make sure that they’re perfectly semantic, that the document gives the most structure it possibly can. This is part of the POUR principles: perceivable, operable, understandable and robust and robust is the one that’s the most important, because it’s the one where we can really do our due diligence to make sure that we’re giving people who use assistive technology the most information that can be given in that document that we’re giving proper alt text that maybe there’s an infographic and we’re walking through all the pieces of that infographic, not just simply giving it an alt text that says, infographic of COVID cases in the last 30 days, you know, but actually gives them that data and it can stay a visual element. But we’ve designed it in a way that allows assistive technology to walk through that data in a meaningful way.

Kris

In terms of PDF accessibility, we’ve just touched upon it upon this with the range, but can you give – can you provide us an overview on WCAG 2.0 AA, PDF/UA standards and the Section 508 PDF checklist. How did these relate to one another and how much overlap is there?

Dax

So what’s interesting is the WCAG 2.0 AA level – because there’s A, AA, and AAA – in AAA, you really probably don’t see in maybe less than 1% of the requirements out there. But of the WCAG 2.0 and 2.1 really is more about web accessibility and responsive layouts and things like that. So the 2.0 and the Section 508 are very closely related in that that WCAG principles are the rules and guidelines in which we follow. The section 508 is the mandate that says we should follow them and then PDF/UA is the- I call it again the Cadillac standard for accessibility. So it’s the hardest one to achieve and takes the most deliberate effort to make sure that you’re PDF/UA compliant. So it’s kind of… it’s not really a good, better, best. It’s the mandate for WCAG. I’m sorry, the mandate for 508, the rules for WCAG, and then the Cadillac experience for PDF/UA.

Kris

Dax, I want to bring this back to our listeners and some scenarios that have played out over email that I’ve heard about. So let’s take this scenario: I am the head of a department at some company, and on Thursday afternoon, my boss tells me, we need to have 10 100 page PDFs fully remediated for accessibility by Monday. Now each PDF is a scanned image with dozens of tables, and I start reading about pdf accessibility, and I quickly realized this is- I’m done, like this is way over my head. So I tell my boss and he says, just to hire someone. So then I go and I go onto Google and I look for some services and I just pay them $2500 and I throw the PDFs at them. Can you break down some of the problems in this scenario? What might go wrong here?

Dax

Oh, there’s quite a bit that can go wrong, and typically it does. This is really a pretty common scenario where they don’t have access to the source document, which is problem number one. Number two, the im- the PDF itself is scanned and number three, they’re hiring a source that is unknown or maybe they have a web page and they say they’re accessible. But when you yourself don’t understand the principles of what it means to be accessible, it’s really hard to judge whether or not your content, when it comes back, is accessible. You know, you take your car to the mechanic and you expect that the mechanic’s going to fix the car. You don’t have to be an expert mechanic to go, then go back and double check his work. But that’s not always the case when it comes to PDF accessibility. You give your documents to… now there are some really reputable companies out there that do a fantastic job. But there are also a lot that are just IT companies jumping on the bandwagon who say, yes we’re accessibility experts. But the documents they produce are far from accessible. So you end up paying a bunch of money, you put this stuff on the web and there’s some version of maybe sort of accessibility. And, you know, then you get someone who calls in and says or emails in and says, hey, this is garbage, I can’t read this and I’m going to sue you or, you know, or more than that, I really need this information. You need to get it to me or I’m going to sue you and then you’re in a scramble trying to figure out okay, well, I paid $2500 to get these documents remediated. What did I really get? So what I try to tell people is that understanding accessibility at the basic level is super key, and in your organization, trying to get that one champion that really is the person that can navigate accessibility for you is so key, and I’m seeing that over and over again. You look on LinkedIn and you look at these jobs and they are program manager for accessibility all over the place. Amazon just hired one. Google just hired one. Facebook has hired several. Adobe has hired some. And so you’re seeing this more and more, where people are really realizing they need to have that position as an advocate or a program manager for accessibility.

Kris

I completely agree with that, and I think this gets back to the accessibility range of documents. What will happen is you might get like, let’s say you’re talking about the Cadillac standard. Well, you might get the middle of the road standard – like it works, but at the same time, you’re missing out on a lot and you just don’t know that. And so the easier check marks have been taken care of, right, the document titles there, it passed the Adobe original check but it’s not thorough. It wouldn’t be like someone like you going through it and really putting in the effort to make sure the document’s fully accessible.

Dax

Well one of the things- I mean with the checker you can- you don’t have- to your tables don’t have to have scope. The Adobe checker will say your tables are just fine without any kind of scope at all. So you can have a table with all sorts of merge cells in it and not have an issue, you know, whatsoever from a checker standpoint. But when you try to use that document and walk through that table, there’s no programmatic association. You don’t know what you’re headers are. You don’t know if it’s a column header or row header. You can have lists that are broken lists where, where instead of where it says list four items, it’ll say list one item, list one item because somebody’s broken apart that list into four single item lists instead of one actual item: one list with four items. And the Checker doesn’t understand that. It just sees there’s a list tag. There’s a list item underneath it. You’re good to go. So there’s lots of ways to fool the checker and get compliance. You know, it’s I call it beyond the green check mark. You know, we really have to go beyond that checker. And that’s why when I see these automated tools say, completely accessible, just clicking the button. It’s 99.9% of the time, there’s ways to fool it, and it’s not going to get everything. And people want this kind of automated way to make a document accessible and in some cases, sure, in very limited ways. Documents common, simple documents can be made accessible super easily. But when it comes to anything a little bit nonstandard, you really need a human interaction to look at that document and understand: Is my color contrast right? Do I have the right scopes? Are my headings logical and follow that specific order? I mean, it’s all part of accessibility, and we just really have to, you know, we just have to care.

Kris

A lot of people when they first start realizing they need to make their PDFs accessible, they’re like, okay, well, what option do I select? Where in Microsoft- where do I check this box? And yes, there is a box you can check, but it doesn’t- It doesn’t work for full accessibility. So we’d like to shortcut the process of making a PDF accessible. Are- is there any software out there that can automate the process? Is there anything that you personally used to make life easier when remediating PDFs?

Dax

Well, I will tell you that the best way to make an accessible document is to use styles. Whether that’s Word or InDesign, it doesn’t really matter. If you use the styles that are built into those documents, you’re going to be much farther along. The accessibility checker inside of Word isn’t terrible. And if you use it and run through that checker, it’s gonna catch quite a few of the things that make your document possibly inaccessible, making sure that you have alt text, making sure that your that your using headings. I mean, it’s not going to catch all the nitty gritty, but it’s gonna do a fair job. And the thing I tell people most is that start with the good document. It’s garbage in, garbage out. You know, if you can understand the basic principles of good document design, then it really is about checking that box for exporting with tags and you’re gonna go so much farther than doing business as usual and saying, okay, well, accessibility is just something we do on the back end. Once I made a PDF then I go in and make it accessible, and you’re really doing yourself a disservice. And most of the time you’re causing yourself extra work because just a few key things while you’re creating that document will go leaps and bounds toward time saving when it comes to a mediating on the PDF end. And like I said before, there are not a lot of documents out there that automate the entire process. There are lots of programs out there that gets you super far that really do a good job of saving time in some of the redundant or ongoing remediation tasks that you have to do, like artifacting, table structure, and things like that so those programs out there are super important. But you just have to remember they are not the definitive answer, you are.

Kris

You hit on something, it- I’m gonna go out script right now when it all starts off with the source document. If you get the source document right, you’re going to be- you’re going to set yourself for a much easier time when it comes to making your PDF accessible. But Microsoft or, you know other document creators – the only goes so far, and I wanted specifically, I want to talk about tables because that’s where a lot of complexity comes into play. Can you talk about how important it is, when you’re on the PDF, to associate scope with your data cells? And also, when it comes to the headers when it comes to associating them with the data cells?

Dax

So tables are one of the most problematic because they just really do require a very hands on approach. So when you have a standard grid, four rows and four columns, right, all screen readers are going to assume that the first row is the column header, meaning that those first cells are going to dictate what is below them. So maybe it’s Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, right. And those columns will have a parent of the date, right, or the day. And then you have rows and those rows, may be event, time, speaker. And those rows dictate what’s to the right of them. So when I’m in a table as a blind person and I’m navigating and I’m three rows down and two rows over, I need to know that I’m Tuesday speaker is Dax Castro. I mean, I want to know that that’s where I’m at and with all of the screen readers out there you can use a combination of control+alt and the number five key on your keyboard to tell me, hey, where am I at on this table and it will go up and read the header for the column and the header for the row and tell you I’m in Tuesday speaker and then give you the value of that cell. But that only works when you have one of two scenarios. One, it’s a very simple table, and it’s just columns and rows. Or two, you have a complex table and you’ve gone in and assigned scope. And scope says, I am the header for either this row or this column, and maybe I span three rows or I span two columns, and I think that’s the part where people get tripped up and they don’t understand what to do. And to be honest Acrobat’s checker doesn’t do a very good job of interpreting those. And so you get a- there’s a WYSIWYG editor, kind of what you see is what you get grid overlays on top of your PDF. And when that doesn’t match up with the underlying table structure, that’s where people get tripped up. And there’s really complex ways to go through and fix those, and they’re they’re doable. But they just take time. And until the software market out there comes up with a better way to assign or fix scope and scope for column and rows, we really are left with, how much do you know? How well can you remediate this table? Which is frustrating.

Kris

It is. And that’s where we get into making your document fully accessible and why a lot of the services out there that you can hire – you might end up with a table that is really unhelpful, that never got addressed because they only took care of basic things you could do to make a document accessible. So I think, if anything I want, I want the audience to take away that tables require work. It just requires work, and it’s skilled work at that and with a lot of services you have to be careful because that’s where- that’s one area where they would potentially fall short.

Dax

Well, you know, it’s funny, because I do- when I do consultations for clients, I try to tell them, look, get with me early. Show me what you’re working on because I can tell you there are ways to modify your tables in very easy ways. People tend to want a stack column headers, one on top of each other. They’ll have, you know, four. They’ll have four rows on top of each other, and then they’ll have another row on top of that, and it’s mergers across all the different cells. They make these tables so complex when if they just take a step back and look at the way their table’s structured and maybe make a few all alterations, they’re going to find that remediation is almost sometimes eliminated. And in other cases it’s reduced greatly, you know. And so part of it is awareness of hey, this is going to be problematic. Is there another way? Do we need to mash these five pieces of unrelated data into one table, and when you can start seeing with those kinds of eyes, then you’re gonna end up with a lot easier journey down the road when it comes time to remediate that table.

Kris

Yet another reason to have someone in charge of accessibility within your organization.

Dax

Absolutely.

Kris

I use Adobe Pro DC. Is there anything that rivals it? Is there anything close because people research- I researched when I first started looking like, is there any other way to go? That’s the only road I saw. What about from your point of view?

Dax

Well, you know, I don’t favor, I don’t sponsor any program specifically and I- but I do know that once you understand the basics of accessibility and you can do it manually, you start to realize, hey, I don’t want to spend all day artifacting all these blank paragraph returns. And so things like CommonLook and Access4 – the one button I can tell you, I wish it Acrobat would actually it insert into DC is artifact untagged elements because I can spend if my doc- my client says I need this document to be PDF/UA compliant PAC 3 compliant, then one of the principles of PDF/UA, it says everything has to have an assignment. There can’t be any any untagged items in your document, which is fine, which is fine. Except that, now I’ve got to go through and all of the little borders on my table, every little element that might be a background element. All those things need to be manually selected and tagged as artifact, which can take an enormous amount of time. But if you have a program like CommonLook or Access4 and there are others out there, not just those two. But when you have those document- those software programs out there and you can press one button and it will artifact your entire document document’s untagged elements. I mean, that’s huge time saver. Now, and they cost money. I mean, you know, CommonLook is $700 and Access4 is, I don’t know, $350. I mean, you know, there and that those are fee, I mean, those air recurring fees, they’re not single purchase. And so if you’re not doing this professionally, and you can- where you can pass that cost on to your client, it’s not something you’re just going to reach for while you’re just trying to do a few side work projects or, you know, something a one-off document. But they’re huge time savers, you know, they really do a great job.

Kris

Aan you talk about how long it can take to remediate a more complex, longer document and just how much people can expect to spend on some of this stuff?

Dax

Well, I can tell you that I just remediated a 1500 page set of documents. It was an environmental report and it had the gamut of things you could possibly have. It had images and figures and complex tables that spanned across pages. I mean, it had- it was a poster child for all of the elements you can put into a document, and it took me three solid days, literally eight hours a day to remediate that document. Now, if I would have had something like CommonLook or one of the other – Access4 or any one of the other programs, that time frame would have been greatly reduced. But even so, even a whole day when it comes to project workflow, you really have to schedule for those things. And I find that larger organizations don’t understand the time it takes to remediate a document. And when they’re not doing those good document hygiene elements in on the forefront when it comes to the PDF end, they don’t schedule those extra two or three days or a week for, you know, super large volumes of documents to get remediated before they need to be posted to the web. And so understanding, a lot of times I’ll take a client in all share screen or all. You know, before COVID would sit down with them and say, okay, watch me do just this one page. So because a lot of times they were like, no, it can’t take you that long. Look, this is what you’re doing. And if you just did this and this, it would take me five minutes. So it’s about awareness and understanding the level of complexity.

Kris

And I think everybody should know that you are a master at this and I’m not saying that to be complimentary. I’m saying that because you are. And if it took you three days, just imagine how long it would take someone else to do it. And if you want to see this being done, you can check out – there’s a time lapse video that you did remediating a document for that had Corona virus information on YouTube and you condensed it down to eight minutes. But it took you an hour. So that just shows one, how if you know everything to do, every right, every last step, that you can do this in this amount of time. But I can tell you even people that are proficient with document accessibility aren’t able to do it that fast. And other thing that I like about when someone hires someone they can trust in is credible, such as you, because you’re you’re an advocate. You would never send back in an inaccessible PDF. So you know that you’re in good hands when you hire you to take care of a document. But that’s what you – that’s what you want. It just takes a lot of time, and I don’t think people quite understand. They think that document accessible to is easy. And they’re like you said, it’s like, well, why can’t you do this faster? Well, it’s like you go ahead and try to do this faster because it’s just not possible.

Dax

Well, you know, one of the things I tell people is always send your, anybody you’re thinking might be a a vendor for you for accessibility. Always send them a sample document and say, hey, would you be willing to remediate this document? And if you have an accessibility advocate or someone you trust, they’ll be able to look at that document right away. I mean, I can tell you literally in 30 seconds whether or not someone remediating a document knows what they’re doing or not. It’s super evident when you when you look at the tags tree and you look at the structure, you check a few alt texts and you really get a sense for, does this company or does this person know how remediate? You know, remediation is an art. I mean, there’s a lot of personal style when it comes to remediation, but they’re also a lot of hard and fast rules that you have to follow. So the way I remediate a document might not be the same way someone else remediates. But in the end, if they’re following the WCAG or PDF/UA guidelines, they’re gonna be very similar and being able to have someone to double check that is so key because, you know, we do. We rely on those experts who say I’m an expert and then, you know, we just take them at their word. And for so many people, this is just such a new topic that they don’t, they don’t know, You know? You don’t know what you don’t know, you know? And that time lapse that I did, you know, I was actually halfway through that document before I went back and started over. And I went, you know, this is such a really good exercise, people need to see this. So I stopped, I hit revert to saved, and I started over again. And then I hit the record button and put that out there. So I really, I really was pretty proud of that. And, you know, I’m doing it manually. This is no special tools, so it might take me a little longer than others when it comes to artifacting or doing some of the the cleanup work. But it does take time, you know. And the more we can be aware of accessibility and those best practices, the easier we can make it when it comes to the PDF remediation end.

Kris

You just hit upon my next question is- which involves we don’t know what we don’t know. And so right now, let’s forget about the specifics of accessibility. Can you tell someone maybe something else that we haven’t touched upon? If you’re an organization, you’ve got some PDFs, and you need to make them accessible. What are some things that- what is one or two things that they might not know that they should know?

Dax

Oh, well, here’s one that I guarantee they don’t know. There is a bullet that is used in Microsoft Word very often, and it’s the hollow circle. It’s, you know, usually the first level bullet is that solid bullet that we all know, and then a lot of times the secondary bullet is the hollow circle. But what they don’t understand is in some instances their template is actually using the letter o. And so when you go into a screen reader and you check the bullet structure, it’ll say, o, it won’t say bullet and you’ll hear o, this is the way you do this. And o, this is the you know, whatever, whatever. So you don’t testing is so important with NVDA or Jaws or Windows Navigator, Apple VoiceOver. You know, though, testing with an actual screen reader is so important because you won’t know that it voices those things. There’s the right tri- this triangle an arrow solid arrow that kind of points to the right. And you see it in a lot of documents that says, black right pointing pointer. And you’re like, okay, well, who wants to hear that 100 times, you know, in a document, the missing cells inside tables. So when you have a blank cell inside a table, I just wrote a block post about this – Section508Help.com. But I just run a post about this NVDA, when you do a hyphen or a dash inside a cell, NVDA won’t read it at all. It just doesn’t read. It doesn’t read blank. It doesn’t read hyphen. It doesn’t read anything. Jaws will read blank, Jaws will read dash or hyphen. And then if you write the words N/A in the table, Jaws will read, na and, NVDA will read N/A. So those little idiosyncrasies that are unique to the different screen readers you use really will mold how you remediate and how you handle your best practices for things like tables and things like, you know, images and bullets and lists. So it’s super important. If I could tell all the people that are listening right now, if I could tell you one key thing, learn the basics of how to use a screen reader and test your documents, you’re gonna find out so much more if you simply understand how to navigate using a screen reader, just the basics and you’ll be able to test your own documents and catch yourself in a lot of those errors.

Kris

And if anybody would like to follow up on some of those tips, I was actually reading your blog yesterday: Section5, the letter o, the letter h, 8.com and those you you go into great detail on those. What’s funny is that about the timing of this podcast episode is you’re about to launch your own podcast. Can you tell us more about your podcast and any other projects you’ve got in the works?

Dax

Sure. So, I’m going to, I decided that there are so many people who don’t understand the WCAG principles that I decided to create a podcast specifically covering each of the different success criteria for the WCAG 2.0, 2.1 guidelines and so that I’m actually launching tomorrow as a matter of fact. So thank you so much for mentioning that. In addition, I also run a website called AccessibilityScripts.com. And that website is devoted to people who use Adobe InDesign who are looking for ways to speed up their accessibility workflow. And so there you can find a color contrast analyzer that will take your document, analyze all the different colors and give you a quick matrix of what colors are compliant and what aren’t. And the one I’m most proud of is assigning alt text to a document is super time intensive, and a lot of times weren’t off the authors of that alt text. So someone will give us usually an Excel file or a Word doc or something with all this alt text in it and our job is to insert it. It’s a lot of copy and paste. So I created a script that actually imports that alt text from a database directly into InDesign literally in one second, all your alt text. Whether it’s one image or 100 images or 1000 images, it’s all done in one click. So anyway, those are kind of my side projects. And, yeah, thanks so much for bringing those up.

Kris

Oh yeah, definitely. It’s always good to hear someone go over WCAG in plain language because it gets technical. Before- I want to ask you where people can find you online but before I do, is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you would like to say?

Dax

I think the main takeaway I’d like people to understand is that the accessibility guidelines are not there just for blind people. We think about that kind of as are our initial first reaction, but we have an aging population. There’s a lot of people out there with low vision, and our aging population right now might not be crazily tech savvy. But I mean, I’m 50. Well, I’ll be 50 next year. And you know, it’s not gonna be too much longer before I’m gonna you know, maybe in my vision starts failing, But, in addition, you know, 8% of the male population out there is colorblind, and it’s one of the most huge violations I see all over, especially with the COVID stuff coming out where people aren’t taking into account that that there is a portion of people out there who are red-green, colorblind, and they use red-green all the time in a lot of their documents. So I guess my main takeaway is realize that accessibility is not just blind people. It’s for lots of different people with all different types of abilities. And if we can create our documents with a little bit more care in a little bit more understanding than we’re gonna be, be able to create documents that are accessible for everyone and and really, that’s the goal is accessibility for all.

Kris

Absolutely. And thank you so much for coming on this podcast and sharing your wealth of information. It’s- this is going to be so helpful for everyone. I’m sure there are some people that want to contact you and that need to contact you. Really, if you’re listening to this and you are working on PDF accessibility or, you know your PDFs need work, Dax is a person you want to know. Where can people find you online? How can they contact you? Tell us all about it.

Dax

Alright, Kris, thank you so much. So the easiest way is through LinkedIn, you know, so you can find me on LinkedIn. I have it open pretty much all the time. My email address is Dax@DaxCastro.com. I also run a Facebook group called PDF Accessibility, and we have some great people in there. Chad Chelius and Kenny Moore. Kenny Moore runs TaggedPDF.com and it is a great resource. Chad teaches and does on-site accessibility training as well. There’s a great group of people on- in our Facebook group, and we think we have, I think, a couple hundred members in there. You know, In addition, you can find me- I have a PDF Accessibility YouTube channel. And, you know my my blog, of course. So I have two different URLs for my blog. The one I decided to change to is the Section508Help.com, the other – my initial starting one was just too complex for people to say. So I tried to make it simpler, but yeah, so that’s where you can find me. And, you know, I look forward to it. And, Kris, thank you so much for bringing this out. PDF accessibility is such a huge topic, especially when kind of our knee-jerk reaction now is to post PDFs of documents to do things like spreading information about COVID resources or updates or statistics or, you know, health concerns. And, you know, we want to make sure that the people we that are most vulnerable are the ones who can actually read the information. So I appreciate you.

Kris

And thank you so much. And thank you for your advocacy. See, we’re going to go ahead and stop it there. This has been a great podcast. Dax Castro, thank you so much.

Dax

Thank you, Kris.

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